Please fill in this template fully and provide all requested information.
Incomplete tickets may be dropped.

This feedback is:
{{{
[ ] Positive
[X] Negative
[ ] Neutral
}}}

My IRC nick is: sirpengi

Please briefly describe the interaction that caused you to file this ticket:

Today I first joined #fedora, thinking to eventually ask if anyone can help troubleshoot issues I'm having with F15 on a Lenovo x120e. Without having all my debugging notes available I idled and tried my best to help people with any questions. In the 2 hours I was there, I helped 4 people with questions, after which I was banned for being off-topic. Not only do I feel that I was not off-topic, but during the entire time a channel operator was being excessively picky about what was topic. This experience did not make me feel that the fedora community is very welcoming.

=== Overview of topics I participated in ===

Topic 1: 22:27:49

LukeScott asks why he shouldn't be using Fedora on a server. Various people chime in and the conversation is carried for quite a while. I pipe in, continuing a thread where we are telling LukeScott that you can still get "newer" packages on RHEL/CentOS.
It is when LukeScott asks a question about the IUS repo site that DiscordianUK first mentions that the talk is offtopic (@22:56:49). LukeScott tries to defend his question but DiscordianUK shoots it down. Following the warnings, I offer to take the topic to PM (@23:01:25) and things end there.

Topic 2: 23:50:35

DeviceZer0 is looking for a chromium repo. There's an interchange that I haven't left out where I step on the toes of VileGent (23:52:32~23:54:49), but that is quickly swept under the rug and I answer DeviceZer0's question. Again, DiscordianUK complains that the talk is off-topic (@23:58:44) but later rescinds this when it's pointed out we're talking about a fedorapeople repo.

Topic 3: 00:14:30

KBme isn't a fedora user, but wants to know the contents of a fedora package. He is having issues using admin.fedoraproject.org, and I point out the links on the page that takes him to the appropriate koji page. Then it's mostly KBme talking, and I mention he can browse the git repo as well. DiscordianUK warns of off-topic again (@00:25:33)

Topic 4: 00:25:39

Xdept is trying to install vncserver from the repos and can't figure out why he doesn't have the vncpasswd executable. After I answer the question I am promptly kicked.

=== In my defense ===
At the worst, it could only be argued that the the first topic was off-topic. However, it was a discussion that even DiscordianUK took a part of. All in all, he spoke more words on that topic than I did, and it was only after he was tired of the conversation did it start to become off-topic. Also in my defense, I heeded the warnings and offered to take things in PM. Also of note, when the questioner tries to defend his topic, the op refuses to discuss it further (@23:04:47). Can an op really not offer a user a chance to defend themselves?

I shouldn't need to argue topic 2, since the op rescinded his complaint.

Re Topic 3, while the questioner wasn't a fedora user, he had an issue with a fedora community website, regarding the contents of a package provided by fedora. I'd argue that's on topic. If there's a better place to ask such a question, the op could've been helpful in providing a hint(e.g. "please take it to #fedora-whatsingrub"), rather then just telling people to stop talking.

Re Topic 4, the questioner is on a fedora system, having issues with a package they installed from the fedora repos. Not only did I answer the question by pointing out the package he needs to install, but also included how I arrived at that answer. That hardly seems like kick-worthy behavior.

Please note other IRC nicks that are involved in this interaction: DiscordianUK (also LukeScott, DeviceZer0, Xdept)

Please describe what action or positive change could be adopted based on this feedback:
Ops needs to be reminded to take their responsibility seriously. Behavior of a channel op reflects on the fedora community.

I also think there should be clear protocol as to what steps and op should take when action is necessary. When I was kicked, the kick message was "Xdept (housekeeping)". At no point was I notified that DiscordianUK was an op, and his kick message left me wondering who took the action. I only know now because an onlooker PM'ed me and shared his version of the logs. It also wasn't clear then what methods of recourse I had available to defend myself. Ops in other channels that I've been in usually include a "PM me for explanation" in the kick message or directly PM the offender after the kick. I only found out about this trac after whining on identi.ca about this incident.

Also, based on the response I got on identi.ca, it appears this sort of things happens a lot. I wasn't originally going to file any complaint - I'm already idling and assisting in too many other channels across freenode and OFTC so it really doesn't matter to me if my help is not welcome somewhere. But it seems a lot of people who were grieved don't know about this trac, thus a lot of complaints don't get filed. There's a saying that goes "for every 1 you see, there are 9 more in the shadows..."

Any additional notes or logs:
Unrelated chatter has been replaced with ...
I'll also attach the original undoctored log.

{{{
22:27:49 LukeScott Anyone know of any good points of why to or why not
to use Fedora as a server OS? (Besides its shorter life cycle - which may or may
not be the biggest one)
22:28:08 DiscordianUK that's a good reason why not to
...
22:28:20 fenrus02 LukeScott, that's pretty much it. 13mo lifespan.
22:29:38 LukeScott So if I wanted newer packages Fedora is pretty much
what I want then, correct? I also heard it's easier to upgrade between major
versions with Fedora (although I'm not sure if that's accurate).
...
22:30:13 DiscordianUK We don't advise trying to do that LukeScott
...
22:30:41 LukeScott Trying to upgrade between Fedora major versions?
22:30:41 DiscordianUK backup/reinstall/restore is what we advise
LukeScott
22:31:30 LukeScott On a desktop that's not too big of a deal, but what
about a server? Surely if downtime is an issue that isn't ideal. Backing up and
restoring alone would take a lot of time.
22:31:33 nirik LukeScott: also, there's a pretty quick pace of updates.
...
22:32:00 DiscordianUK I wouldn't recommend Fedora as a server os
...
22:32:32 LukeScott So if newer packages were a bigger deal, what
flavor do you recommend?
...
22:33:08 mbana how close is fedora to red hat enterprise?
22:33:09 fenrus02 LukeScott, el6 for a server.
22:33:17 fenrus02 mbana, not much.
[376/642]
22:33:29 nirik mbana: RHEL is a downstream of fedora.
22:33:30 fenrus02 mbana, rhel6 is based off f12+ more or less. MUCH
has changed.
22:33:34 DiscordianUK on a server you want stability
22:33:40 LukeScott Well from what I understand (may be wrong) Fedora
is bleeding edge, Red Hat is Enterprise.
22:33:41 DiscordianUK not change
..
22:33:58 DiscordianUK Fedora is leading edge
..
22:34:20 DiscordianUK rawhide is bleeding edge
...
22:34:40 DiscordianUK and it may eat your firstborn
...
22:35:23 LukeScott DiscordianUK: So is there anything in-between in
the Red Hat family? CentOS and RHEL's packages are way out of date compared to
the leading edge (at least some packages are).
...
22:35:50 fenrus02 LukeScott, centos/scientific are based off rhel
directly.
22:36:01 DiscordianUK LukeScott, the various other repos for CentOS
22:36:02 nirik LukeScott: well, it's tradeoffs. Do you want things to be
stable? or do you want the latest versions of everything? ;)
...
22:36:09 DiscordianUK like EPEL
...
22:37:03 LukeScott DiscordianUK: So this is an Enterprise repo for
Fedora?
22:37:16 DiscordianUK no
22:37:29 fenrus02 LukeScott, no. EPEL is the things that are not in
RHEL, but still fit in there nicely.
22:37:47 nirik LukeScott: do you require EVERYTHING to be new? or just
selected bits? or ?
22:38:14 DiscordianUK Specifically EPEL will not overwrite stuff in core
RHEL or CentOS
...
22:39:04 listman I think the first question should be what type of server is
this, large production w/ 2000 users or is this just a private server for a few
ppl
22:39:13 LukeScott nirik: It really depends on the package.
...
22:40:03 DiscordianUK Let's be clear LukeScott you won't find your ideal
distro
22:40:06 nirik LukeScott: well, see the above tradeoff then. The very
newest packages don't match up with everything stable.
22:40:15 DiscordianUK It just doesn't exist
22:40:37 LukeScott Production. But we want to be able to take
advantage of some of the newer technologies. One example is the SSL extension
(which won't be of use until XP usage drops down significantly). The version of
OpenSSL in CentOS doesn't support it, but the version used in Fedora does.
...
22:40:55 DiscordianUK As nirk says there are tradeoffs
22:41:02 DiscordianUK nirik
...
22:41:53 DiscordianUK In those circs I'd choose centos and build my own
rpms
22:42:03 DiscordianUK but that's me
...
22:42:46 DiscordianUK But then I know how to build rpms
...
22:44:41 sirpengi I dunno, I use CentOS and I find that there's a
high quality repo for all things I want to be the latest stable
...
22:45:06 DiscordianUK centos has many good repos
...
22:47:52 LukeScott Some packages I understand. But I wish some of the
other packages were updated more, like PHP. I wish I could install MySQL 5.5
from RPM, as an example.
...
22:48:22 LukeScott But then again I haven't been using 3rd party
repos.
...
22:50:23 sirpengi LukeScott: IUS has both
22:50:27 sirpengi http://iuscommunity.org/Repos
...
22:51:00 sirpengi LukeScott: but I use/prefer remi's repo - well,
back when I was on php and mysql
...
22:53:11 LukeScott sirpengi: What's the best way to lookup a package
in ius through the browser?
22:53:35 sirpengi LukeScott: click on the "repos" tab in the nav and
select the version/arch you use
...
22:53:48 LukeScott sirpengi: Ah ok. Got it. Tried search first.
...
22:55:09 LukeScott sirpengi: Any chance there might be a PHP-FMP
(5.3.6) repo around?
...
22:56:05 sirpengi LukeScott: isn't there one in IUS?
...
22:56:49 DiscordianUK is there any good reason you are still asking
this in #fedora LukeScott
...
22:57:07 LukeScott sirpengi: I just see php53u. Doesn't really say
what SAPI it is.
...
22:57:38 sirpengi LukeScott: php53u-fpm
...
22:58:43 LukeScott sirpengi: I'm not seeing it here:
http://dl.iuscommunity.org/pub/ius/stable/Redhat/5/SRPMS/repoview/letter_p.group
.html
22:58:56 DiscordianUK last warning LukeScott take this to #centos you are
not running Fedora
...
22:59:28 nirik LukeScott: #rhel may also have better info on 3rd party
repos for rhel/centos. ;)
...
22:59:49 DiscordianUK indeed nirik
23:00:00 DiscordianUK this is not the place
...
23:00:49 LukeScott DiscordianUK: I'm asking about repos. Couldn't that
be RHEL CentOS or Fedora?
...
23:00:58 DiscordianUK No
23:01:20 DiscordianUK Fedora and Centos/RHEL repos are not
interchangeable
23:01:25 sirpengi LukeScott: feel free to PM me to continue the
discussion
23:01:39 LukeScott sirpengi: Thanks.
23:01:39 DiscordianUK and now you've done
23:01:40 * nirik would suggest #rhel personally.
...
23:03:12 DiscordianUK can we please return to fedora stuff here
...
23:04:11 nirik DiscordianUK: I think we have. ;)
23:04:22 DiscordianUK good
...
23:04:47 LukeScott DiscordianUK: May I PM you please.
23:04:57 DiscordianUK no way
23:05:07 DiscordianUK I don't do pms
...
23:50:35 DeviceZer0 anyone know of any repos for chromium-dev?
...
23:51:58 sirpengi DeviceZer0: do you particularly need chromium or
does chrome work for you?
23:52:14 VileGent maybe repos.fedorapeople.org
...
23:52:32 VileGent sirpengi, chrome is closed source chromium is open
source
23:52:48 sirpengi VileGent: I know the difference. I'm asking if it
matters
23:53:05 VileGent sirpengi, for alot of us yes it does
23:53:20 sirpengi VileGent: now unless you speak for DeviceZer0 then
your opinion doesn't really count here
23:53:36 DiscordianUK Ouch
23:53:46 Egyptian[Laptop] sirpengi: actually his opinion reflects the
opinion of most of us here
23:54:02 DiscordianUK absolutely
23:54:02 VileGent sirpengi, well i have been here over 5 years and
you have been here how long
23:54:49 sirpengi I don't see how that matters. Seniority doesn't
mean you dictate how others feel
23:54:54 Egyptian[Laptop] sirpengi: if it doesnt matter to you
whether your copy of windows comes from the store or from some warez pirate then
thats your private business really
...
23:55:41 DiscordianUK can we just get back to Fedora
23:55:53 DeviceZer0 sirpengi, i do prefer to use the chromium-dev over
chrome....been using chromium for a long time and like it. i know they are the
same minus logos and auto bug reporting(i think???) in chrome.
...
23:56:17 sirpengi DeviceZer0: then
http://repos.fedorapeople.org/repos/spot/chromium/ should be it
23:56:23 DiscordianUK -dev sounds like debian to me
23:57:03 VileGent geez
...
23:57:40 DeviceZer0 sirpengi, ah. awesome....
23:57:46 DiscordianUK we support what we ship
23:57:53 DeviceZer0 hmm ..chromium 12 is the current -dev channel
right?
23:58:25 sirpengi DeviceZer0: appears to be updated april 6th, so
that seems pretty new
23:58:44 DiscordianUK right can this stop
23:59:01 DiscordianUK This is a Fedora channel
23:59:28 nirik a fedorapeople repo doesn't seem too far offtopic to me.
23:59:43 nirik it's at least related to fedora. ;)
...
00:00:50 DeviceZer0 lol yea...i would assume talking about installing
applications in fedora would be a fedora related subject
00:00:58 DeviceZer0 :)
...
00:01:06 DiscordianUK there's a fedorapeople repo for chromium-dev?
...
00:01:38 nirik yes, spot's repo is the dev version I think...
00:01:53 DiscordianUK hmm
00:02:31 DiscordianUK I apologise as necessary
...
00:03:26 nirik DiscordianUK: I could be mistaken... but I thought it was.
00:03:53 DiscordianUK Possibly
00:04:09 DeviceZer0 nirik, i think it is too.
00:04:39 * DiscordianUK installs it
...
00:05:18 DiscordianUK ahh yes 12
...
00:05:56 DiscordianUK which is roughly what google-chrome is on
...
00:14:30 --> KBme (~KBme@2001:470:1f13:94::3) has joined #fedora
00:14:34 KBme hai
00:15:11 KBme is it possible to download a package from the
admin.fedoraproject.org or does it just display information about it?
...
00:15:42 KBme also, it might now be just quicker to ask if fedora
installs the grub defaults file into /etc/defaults as debian or not...
00:15:44 Egyptian[Laptop] KBme: are you talking about updates-testing
repo ?
00:16:01 KBme no, i'm talking about the packages search and stuff
00:16:07 KBme honestly, i'm not really a fedora user
00:16:17 KBme but i found the interface very difficult
00:16:36 KBme like how do I download a package from this page
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/acls/name/grub2 ?
00:16:37 Egyptian[Laptop] KBme: what so difficult about gnome or kde?
my 5 yo uses it
00:16:49 KBme and why didn't search find anything for "grub"
00:16:58 KBme heh
00:17:05 Egyptian[Laptop] KBme: uhhh.. if you are using f14 you are
using grub2
00:17:36 Egyptian[Laptop] i take that back .. grub 0.97 hmm
00:17:41 KBme i just want to download the package or check it's contents
...
00:18:06 KBme i do not have fedora, i just need to see where it installs
the defaults file
00:18:15 Egyptian[Laptop] rpm -qil grub ?
00:18:19 sirpengi KBme: if you click on "build status" it'll take you
to the koji page. where you can download pretty much any build in the history of
that package
00:18:23 Egyptian[Laptop] oh
00:18:29 KBme yay
00:18:44 KBme sirpengi, thank you very mush sir
00:19:59 KBme it is very complicated though
00:20:01 ampletime sirpengi, cool tip thanks
00:23:11 sirpengi KBme: actually, it seems if you went to "package
source" you can browse the git repo. if you know how to read the .spec file the
info you want is probably there
...
00:24:46 KBme sirpengi, yeah, well, exploring an archive is way easier.
Also, i have no clue about rpm nor fedora.
00:25:20 KBme I'm a deb/tar/ebuild guy ;) just checking out where you
install the grub defaults file
00:25:33 DiscordianUK This has now to cease
00:25:36 --> Xdept (~Linode@122.58.48.199) has joined #fedora
00:25:39 Xdept Help
00:25:41 KBme and it seems everyone puts it in /etc/defaults
00:25:48 KBme s,s$,,
00:25:51 Xdept I've installed yum install vncserver and vnc yet vncpasswd
isn't available why?
00:25:58 Xdept [root@ubuntu ~]# vncpasswd
00:25:58 Xdept -bash: vncpasswd: command not found
...
00:26:37 sirpengi Xdept: ubuntu?
00:26:45 Xdept that's just the hostname sirpengi
00:26:53 sirpengi just checking
00:26:56 Xdept Package
tigervnc-server-module-1.0.90-0.16.20100420svn4030.fc13.i686 already installed
and latest version
00:27:10 Xdept Yet the system says the package aint there
00:27:11 Xdept =\
...
00:29:00 sirpengi yum provides /vncpasswd tells me that
tigervnc-server-minimal provides that in /usr/bin/vncpasswd
00:29:33 -- Mode #fedora [+b !~sirpengi@freelancedreams.com] by fedbot
00:29:34 <-- fedbot has kicked sirpengi (Xdept (housekeeping))
}}}