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My IRC nick is: Irreducibilis
Please briefly describe the interaction that caused you to file this ticket:
Well, I came in asking a simple question about compiz, but then upon commenting on someone else's question by mentioning "xampp" (apparently a swear word in there) and my experience with how it reacts with SElinux, fenrus02 proceeded to jump on me and everyone else who asked about it in a manner that I would describe as similar to Sheldon from "The Big Bang Theory" ... when I then shrugged it off and decided to just go back to my main question about compiz, he continued going on about xampp as if I hadn't asked about compiz at all -- or is "that" not supported as well? As others continued to mention xampp, he would jump on them too... so I decided to just say thanks and that I'd get help elsewhere.
Fedbot then made his periodic comment reminding people to file tickets about their experiences in #Fedora, before I left, so I figured I would.
Now of course, I understand by filing this ticket that I may come across as a stupid, idiot whiner who should be ignored, but I believe one of the things that was mentioned as far as filing tickets is "Complaints about a user. If a certain user has personally attacked you or otherwise behaved so you don't feel welcome in #fedora" ... Not that I feel "personally attacked" or anything, he didn't do that. What he did do is make me feel unwelcome in #fedora. I came there to ask a question, and for mistakenly saying something that he perceived to be stupid, I was jumped on and my question was ignored.
I understand that the philosophy of Linux in general is to solve more of your problems yourself, but does that mean being rude to newcomers? It's only been 8 months since I've transitioned to Linux from Windows, so I don't know everything -- and I imagine it would be discouraging to people who know even less as well.
Please note other IRC nicks that are involved in this interaction: fenrus02
Please describe what action or positive change could be adopted based on this feedback: I don't know? It's not like I expect anything to happen as a result. Most likely those who view this will think it's all my fault.
Any additional notes or logs: http://pastebin.com/gz0ZpiQB
Thanks for your feedback!
I will attempt to gather time stamped logs of this situation that you failed to provide.
Commonly when one is seeking help, generally they should avoid "helping" others at the same time it just makes things messy. I am not saying that this is your fault or that you are stupid. Just a suggestion for the future.
I will comment further upon reviewing the channel logs.
Hello,
first of all let me say, don't feel like an idiot or whiner that should be ignored. There was nothing wrong with your conversation or behavior. In fact, you were very polite and asked a valid question.
There's IMHO too often a general do-it-the-fedora-way-or-we-will-flame-you-into-oblivion" behavior in #fedora. Often enough combined with newb-bashing. The reaction is obviously that people leave and give Fedora a bad reputation, no matter what message their IRC client gets when they join the channel ([Notice] -ChanServ- [#fedora] "Any advice you read here is provided by individual community members. You should use it at your OWN RISK. This advice is owned by each individual, and does NOT represent the views of Freenode, Fedora or Red Hat. This channel may be logged").
That said, we're after all just humans and make mistakes. Though is there no excuse for being disrespectful to people one doesn't even know!
There's no need to assume that a new "nick" joining the channel and is asking a question, is a complete idiot just because he needs help (maybe put a post-it on your screen reminding yourself: behind such nicks are in 99.9% human beings with feelings)
We have AFAIK no hardcoded rule that a new visitor in #fedora isn't allowed to answer questions as the original poster of this ticket did.
Often enough people seem to forget that FOSS isn't just about freedom of the PC, but as well the freedom of choice. Even if that choice means it's not the Fedora way because it's not in our repos or recommended.
There's especially no need to be disrespectful of other developers (by puking on their product) just because someone is used to something different.
There's no need to forget that people come into #fedora from different cultures, timezones, probably with a language barrier, but having experiences in areas of science or whatever that we can't even think of.
New Fedora users (or just trying out Fedora) are coming into #fedora, used to their specific setup of software probably from a former windows or alternative distro. If you think that's not the best one, note some alternative, but don't act stupid. I could write for hours, but i think you should get the point.
Some of us might re-think about their behavior in the channel, be it "i'm operator and can do what i want" or "i'm the smartest ass in the channel, every new nick must be some idiot because he has to ask a question" or "if it's not in the official repos it's a piece of crap" or "insert $other_bad_behavior here".
Be excellent to each other counts for every place in life.
Sorry, i'm not that good to express myself or phrase everything right, but i hope everyone reading this will understand what i mean.
Your fellow operator
I think there are a few things we can learn from this. :)
First off, thanks for posting it, we can learn from negative as well as positive feedback.
So, what I think we can possibly take from this:
a) Calling other non packaged software "crap" or disparaging it should be avoided.
b) When someone gives bad advise, we should explain why it is so, not just say it's bad and not explain further. Then they will know why this isn't advised or at least the pitfalls of the advise. "We don't ship xampp in Fedora, as it's a bundled package of a bunch of things we do ship, you simply need to install a normal lamp stack and you will get security updates, better integration, selinux support and a host of other good things"
c) It's always best to stop and clarify what the orig question is and get back to that and work on solving it. Continuing sidetracks or focusing on one thing that is heating up the channel should be avoided. "Lets all go back to the compiz issue..."
Anyhow, I'm sure we will discuss this in our next weekly meeting and try and improve from it.
Thanks!
Replying to [comment:2 thomasj]:
I can only agree with your general notion about being more open when it comes to discussing issues in #fedora. However, I would like to point out that the difference between ##linux and ##fedora is that ##fedora talks about how things are done in Fedora - and ##linux is general talk about how we solve problems free of a distribution.
So I think it's fine to say "this is not the Fedora way". Maybe talk that seems to leave the realm of Fedora can be guided over to ##linux or the distro channel where it belongs to. Politely of course - and with an explanation. Just because it's not the Fedora way doesn't mean it will not work - but it's off topic in ##fedora.
There are other channels like ##linux that handles FOSS more generally. ##fedora is there to support the FOSS and philosophy behind Fedora - not general FOSS.
+10!
OP here. Thank you guys so much for listening. It means a lot, and I'm glad to know that it's not the general way of the Fedora or Linux community to act this way towards newcomers. :)
As for the suggestion to take certain questions to ##linux, I think I'll try that next time I have a question that's not distro-specific.
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