Sorry, the IRC conversation should look like this:[[BR]]

23:07 < coolack> haha i went to private message EvilBob and i think the guy messaged me what i was gonna send to him before i hit enter lol[[BR]]
23:07 < coolack> dam i might have to switch to ubuntu. I got this weird problem compiling this program[[BR]]
23:08 < coolack> The help channel for fedora is not too friendly[[BR]]
23:08 < coolack> something to do with wxwidgets 2.4 not being supported in fedora[[BR]]
23:08 < coolack> :(

IRC logs
coolack

In this case, coolack was actually trolling. We tried to help him. Really did. But he went on and on. I was around for this part:

{{{
15:41 -!- coolack [~coolack@pool-173-52-106-176.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #fedora
15:42 < dan408> myersg_: heard that one before
15:43 < coolack> <coolack> i'm still trying to install this bin file
15:43 < coolack> [01:42] <coolack> ./AMDOverdriveCtrl: error while loading shared libraries: libwx_gtk2ud_richtext-2.8.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
15:43 < coolack> [01:42] <coolack> is that a library its missing?
15:45 < dan408> ffs
15:45 < dan408> STOP
15:45 < coolack> sigh
15:45 < FranciscoD> coolack: sudo yum whatprovides '/libwx_gtk2ud_richtext-2.8.so.0"
15:45 < FranciscoD> if fedora has it, that'll give it to you.
15:45 < coolack> tks francisco
15:45 < FranciscoD> coolack: Note. Once you run that tool, and your system barfs, we may not be able to help you recover.
15:45 < coolack> no problem
15:46 < FranciscoD> coolack: you might need to fresh install. Keep this in mind.
15:46 < dan408> he is trying to install fglrx
15:46 < dan408> which is not supported here
15:46 < coolack> ok
15:46 < coolack> i have a proprietary driver installed
15:46 < coolack> which is what that tool works with
15:46 < pj> still? coolack you had fglrx installed. What happened?
15:46 < coolack> i want to display my vid card temp man
15:46 < coolack> i want to install a gui frontend for amd overdrive
15:47 < coolack> to display speed and temp of the gpu
15:47 < dan408> there is a cpufreq applet for mate
15:47 < dan408> but i haven't messed with it yet
15:47 < dan408> use dmidecode?
15:47 -!- PIKETEAM [~PIKETEAM@unaffiliated/piketeam] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
15:47 < coolack> ya well i already have speed and temp of cpu in my panel
15:47 < coolack> i need it for gpu now. but lm_sensors does not work with the proprietary driver
15:47 < dan408> of course it doesn't
15:48 < coolack> oh of course...
15:48 < dan408> there IS a reason why that driver is not supported here
15:48 < coolack> well the open source one didn't work for me
15:48 < coolack> my gpu ran super hot and sounded like a jet engine
15:48 < coolack> ok buddy?
15:48 < dan408> works for me
15:48 < dan408> then again
15:48 -!- PIKETEAM [~PIKETEAM@unaffiliated/piketeam] has joined #fedora
15:48 < dan408> im not overclocking my radeon for fedora
15:48 < dan408> for whatever retarded reason\
15:48 < coolack> amdoverdirve is not for overclocking
15:48 < coolack> retard
15:48 < dan408> yes it is.
15:49 < coolack> its just for showing the temperature
15:49 < coolack> in my case i just wnat to see temp not overlock retard
15:49 < dan408> you dont need amd overdrive to tell you that.
15:49 < coolack> tell me how to do that then
15:49 < fenris02> enough calling each other names. it's childish. grow up.
15:49 < pj> the OS driver doesn't work for everyone, and is not as good as the proprietary one, to be sure. But if you must use the proprietary driver then it is understandable that it is not supported here.
15:49 < coolack> do you even know the command to show temp can u let pj of francisco help me please
15:50 < pj> coolack: I don't know how to show temp, sorry.
15:50 < coolack> I do
15:50 < dan408> lshw or dmidecode should work.
15:50 < coolack> i just wantted to know how to install this bin file for a gui
15:50 < coolack> and right off the bat i get insulted before anyone can answer lol
15:50 < coolack> lemme try that command francisco said
15:50 < pj> coolack: first thing to do is look to see if anyone has packaged it anywhere. If there's a package for it somewhere it will be much easier.
15:51 < coolack> hmm well i tried a yum search
15:51 < coolack> it wasn't listed
15:51 < pj> coolack: what bin file?
15:51 < fenris02> pj, it is .. he didnt.
15:51 @fedbot Hey, we want to make the channel better. How about dropping us a note and let us know how you feel the channel is doing, good or bad and give feedback about users or issues also. https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ (Tickets reviewed weekly)
15:51 < fenris02> pj, it was pointed out to him several hours ago.
15:51 < coolack> fenris would u bud out please
15:51 < pj> coolack: yum will only list packages in repositories that you have configured it to know about.
15:51 -!- ramsrib [~Thunderbi@182.71.239.158] has joined #fedora
15:51 < coolack> i can't believe how hostile this room is
15:51 < fenris02> coolack, be polite so that i am able to.
15:51 < coolack> oh i see
15:52 < coolack> so by checking for packages you mean just google?
15:52 < coolack> cause thats how i found that bin file
15:52 < coolack> amdoverdrivectrl.bin
15:52 < randomuser> coolack, how do you feel about reading basic documentation?
15:52 < pj> coolack: try pkgs.org or (shudder) rpm.pbone.net
15:52 < coolack> AMDOverdrivectrl.bin
15:52 < randomuser> coolack, that sounds snide, but I can give you some links if you aren't adverse to reading
15:53 < coolack> you guys act like i haven't been here for hours googling the crap out of this
15:53 < dan408> http://distrojumper.wordpress.com/2011/10/15/conky-and-lm-sensors/
15:53 < dan408> enough\
15:54 < coolack> why are you linking something about lm_sensors
15:54 < coolack> when is aid it doesn't work with the proprietary driver?
15:54 < dan408> nevermind
15:54 < dan408> have fun
15:55 < coolack> francisco i think i am typing something wrong
15:55 < coolack> oh wait
15:57 < fenris02> the answer to your question was already stated above. run what you were told, find the results, and you will have your answer.
15:57 < coolack> yum whatprovides '/libwx_gtk2ud_richtext-2.8.so.0" are you talking about this?
15:58 < coolack> you thought i wasn't trying tha thuh?
15:58 < fenris02> what did it tell you ?
15:58 < coolack> no matches were found
15:58 < fenris02> what does that mean to you ?
15:59 < fenris02> you were already told above what it means .. look at your scrollback.
15:59 < dan408> fenris02: nothing
15:59 < fenris02> dan408, let him think a few minutes.
15:59 < dan408> k
15:59 < dan408> brb food
15:59 -!- samikshan [sbairagy@kde/developer/bairagya] has joined #fedora
15:59 -!- sayan [~sayanchow@fedora/sayan] has joined #fedora
16:00 < coolack> your telling me to run something?
16:00 < coolack> they just told me to google it and try some websites?
16:00 < fenris02> nope. not at all for that. i'm telling you to think and read your own scrollback.
16:00 < randomuser> obvious troll is obvious
16:00 < coolack> wow
16:01 < FranciscoD> coolack: 15:45 < FranciscoD> if fedora has it, that'll give it to you.
16:01 < coolack> so fedora doesn't have it
16:01 < coolack> your point is?
16:01 < FranciscoD> coolack: no point.
16:01 < fenris02> thinking is hard.
16:01 < FranciscoD> It isn't available in Fedora.
16:01 -!- mribeirodantas [~mribeirod@unaffiliated/vuln] has quit [Quit: leaving]
16:01 < FranciscoD> No clue where AMD folks want you to get it from
16:02 < coolack> ty for admitting what fenris02 could not francisco
16:02 < pj> coolack: what I would do, if I really needed that tool is I would grab the OpenSUSE .src.rpm and rebuild it for Fedora (Yes, there's an RPM of AMDOverdriveCtrl for OpenSUSE). That's not necessarily something that you will find very easy to do, though.
16:02 < fenris02> coolack, who said i could not? you really should pay more attention.
16:02 < FranciscoD> coolack: admitting?
16:02 < coolack> are you the same guy as evilbob
16:02 < coolack> haha
16:02 < FranciscoD> coolack: nothing to admint. He was trying to get you to see what it meant.
16:02 < FranciscoD> as opposed to deducing it for you.
16:02 < fenris02> coolack, are you going to keep trolling all night?
16:02 -!- Jordan_U [~jordan@c-24-7-139-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
16:02 < coolack> wow
16:03 < coolack> i really almost punched my monitor screen haha
16:03 < coolack> you know what this reminds me of
16:03 < FranciscoD> coolack: No one cares.
16:03 < fenris02> 3
16:03 < [R]> fenris02: that's what she said
16:03 < [R]> fenris02: ALL NIGHT LONG
16:03 < FranciscoD> coolack: we've tried to help you. Stop the crappy commenting.
16:03 < coolack> those gaming communities online, who have a low playerbase...and claim its cause of the learning curve
16:03 < fenris02> 2
16:03 < FranciscoD> he's a goner
16:03 < coolack> when really its just a self fulfilling prophecy by a bunch of nerds in a horrible community
16:03 < fenris02> 1
16:03 < coolack> who drive everyone away
16:03 -!- mode/#fedora [+b $a:Coolack] by fedbot
16:03 < FranciscoD> coolack: shut up man,
16:03 < [R]> he just keeps going and going
16:03 < FranciscoD> some people don't learn
16:03 < [R]> hes like the energizer bunny
16:04 < FranciscoD> It's so irritating.
16:04 < FranciscoD> [R]: makes me hate evolution, that's what it does.
16:04 < dan408> evolution needs work.
16:04 < randomuser> heh
16:04 < [R]> evolution is supposed to get rid of the retards
16:04 < fenris02> no, i do not want to have netsex with you. * coolack ~coolack@pool-173-52-106-176.nycmny.fios.verizon.net :is messaging you, and you have umode +g.
16:05 < FranciscoD> [R]: it's too slow for my liking
16:05 < [R]> he's tryign to have sexy time with me too
16:05 < [R]> i should have +g
16:05 -!- coolack [~coolack@pool-173-52-106-176.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has left #fedora []

}}}

A few things to note:

• Before this conversation, it was pointed out to him that the binary is not recommended for use.
• In spite of that, I did actually tell him how to run it.
• I then told him how to locate the required shared object.
• I did explain to him what the failure to locate that shared object implied, even when fenrus02 was trying to get him to realize it himself.
• He had a preconceived idea of the community being hostile.
• He completely ignored irc etiquette and began to private message everyone present.
• He was repeatedly asked to refrain from random ranting.
• All his questions were indeed answered. He chose to continue his disrespectful conduct.
• I did talk to him on private messaging too, naively hoping to explain why he was banned and may be making him change his behaviour. Needless to say, it did not work out as I'd hoped:

{{{
--- Log opened Wed Jun 19 16:04:36 2013
16:04 -!- Irssi: Starting query in localhost with coolack
16:04 <coolack> snowden needs to die. you people make the world hate hackers....
16:04 <FranciscoD> no
16:04 <FranciscoD> it makes us hate you trolls.
16:05 <FranciscoD> I helped you
16:05 <FranciscoD> I told you not to rant
16:05 <FranciscoD> You didn't listen
16:05 <FranciscoD> You deserve the ban mate.
16:05 <coolack> yes
16:06 <coolack> and if you think its just Americans? your delusional
16:06 <coolack> its the whole world
16:06 <coolack> hackers roaming free and anonymous are over now
16:06 <FranciscoD> wtf are you talking about
16:06 <FranciscoD> stop randomly saying shti
16:06 <FranciscoD> seriously
16:06 <FranciscoD> go fix your system
16:06 <FranciscoD> No one has time for random crap
16:06 <coolack> dude. i don't know what i was thinking
16:06 <coolack> i'm getting rid of linux haha
16:06 <FranciscoD> well done.
16:06 <coolack> i knew years ago irc was shit
16:07 <FranciscoD> ah
16:07 <FranciscoD> yes
16:07 <coolack> but wow. its 10x worse then 20 years ago haha
16:07 <FranciscoD> you're the brilliant one
16:07 <coolack> the world hates you guy
16:07 <FranciscoD> LOL
16:07 <coolack> noone uses fedora cause of the shit community
16:07 <FranciscoD> ROFL
16:07 <coolack> not cause of a learning curve lol
16:07 <FranciscoD> go on
16:07 <FranciscoD> this is hilarious
16:07 <coolack> its a shame how delusional you guys are
16:07 <FranciscoD> LMAO!
16:07 <coolack> John Doe is a fkn loser
16:07 <FranciscoD> hey
16:07 <FranciscoD> stfu
16:07 <coolack> the arrogance
16:07 <coolack> the demeaning attitudes
16:07 <FranciscoD> you know nothing about any one in the channel
16:07 <coolack> the dude is evil
16:07 <coolack> Fuck him and his kids
16:08 <FranciscoD> you've been here 5 minutes
16:08 <coolack> and thats all it takes dude
16:08 <FranciscoD> You fucking retard.
16:08 <FranciscoD> Shut the fuck up
16:08 <FranciscoD> Stop abusing people you know nothing about.
16:08 <FranciscoD> You're rude
16:08 <coolack> normal people in society do not want to associate with arrogant scum
16:08 <FranciscoD> You're impolite
16:08 <coolack> your describing yourselves
16:08 <coolack> i was arned about you people
16:08 <FranciscoD> You're not normal, trust me.
16:08 <coolack> but i had no idea how bad it was
16:08 * FranciscoD is done with this crap
16:08 <FranciscoD> Buh bye!
16:08 <FranciscoD> Have a great life
16:08 <coolack> i had no idea just how bad it was.....
--- Log closed Wed Jun 19 16:08:48 2013

}}}

I've made slight modifications to cover the identity of the person he abused. I don't think it's important. I seldom lose my cool on the channel. As you'll see, I mustered enough control to laugh at what he said quite till the end, until he began to abuse a fellow community member. At that point, I clearly lost it. You can see why. Such or similar behaviour can hardly expect to be rewarded with assistance! Everything is shit, irc, Fedora, linux, and he's the victim here? I hardly think so.

I helped him. He refused to follow etiquette and just stick to troubleshooting. I wouldn't expect any community to remain decent with such a character.

I shouldn't have lost my temper, and I apologize for the language I used. This apology, however, is directed to the community, not the coolack. He thoroughly deserved it IMO.

Warm regards,
Ankur (FranciscoD)

Sorry Eric i dont see where EvilBob did anything worng on this ticket
and for your information most people who help in #fedora use umode +g so we cannot be private messaged to keep all conversations in the channel.

A little pre-emptive with the ticket here IMHO

If a new users says "The help channel for fedora is not too friendly" I want to know why so this can be remedied.

..and you haven't actually qualified this remark.. What if the user had said that "support in fedora is a little bit like banana eating monkeys wearing boiler suits"..would we still need no qualification of the statement prior to filing the ticket?

What if the user's definition of unfriendly is: "not enough smilies at the end of sentences"?

I say, until we can get specifics of why he feels its "not friendly", before making wild assumptions as to the reasons why, and calling out trolls...do nothing.

Replying to [comment:4 dcr226]:

A little pre-emptive with the ticket here IMHO

I disagree. There is clearly an image problem here and we need to determine what the cause of these problems are.

If a new users says "The help channel for fedora is not too friendly" I want to know why so this can be remedied.

..and you haven't actually qualified this remark.. What if the user had said that "support in fedora is a little bit like banana eating monkeys wearing boiler suits"..would we still need no qualification of the statement prior to filing the ticket?

Well, I believe the log that I attached actually qualifies the issues that were in play. I haven't had a chance to pull excerpts out but I will before the next meeting.

What if the user's definition of unfriendly is: "not enough smilies at the end of sentences"?

I would doubt that would ever be a problem that would be reported.

I say, until we can get specifics of why he feels its "not friendly", before making wild assumptions as to the reasons why, and calling out trolls...do nothing.

There were no wild assumptions made. I asked for an inquiry and then went to collect logs and to find out what really happened. Any time someone has a bad experience with Fedora Support we need to take a look at what happened. Maybe it's wasn't the fault of one of our support-givers but we have to remember that there are others watching. A poor exchange between people in our support channel makes Fedora look bad.

Replying to [comment:5 sparks]:

Replying to [comment:4 dcr226]:

A little pre-emptive with the ticket here IMHO

I disagree. There is clearly an image problem here and we need to determine what the cause of these problems are.

So here's a crazy idea..how about you ask the guy that reported the unfriendliness to clarify what he actually means?

If a new users says "The help channel for fedora is not too friendly" I want to know why so this can be remedied.

..and you haven't actually qualified this remark.. What if the user had said that "support in fedora is a little bit like banana eating monkeys wearing boiler suits"..would we still need no qualification of the statement prior to filing the ticket?

Well, I believe the log that I attached actually qualifies the issues that were in play. I haven't had a chance to pull excerpts out but I will before the next meeting.

So basically, we're supposed to take his opinion of "unfriendly", then make our own subjective interpretation of what that means to us, given the log you attached? Cool..now I know :)

What if the user's definition of unfriendly is: "not enough smilies at the end of sentences"?

I would doubt that would ever be a problem that would be reported.

But, you still don't know what is being reported, beyond "not friendly"

I say, until we can get specifics of why he feels its "not friendly", before making wild assumptions as to the reasons why, and calling out trolls...do nothing.

There were no wild assumptions made. I asked for an inquiry and then went to collect logs and to find out what really happened. Any time someone has a bad experience with Fedora Support we need to take a look at what happened. Maybe it's wasn't the fault of one of our support-givers but we have to remember that there are others watching. A poor exchange between people in our support channel makes Fedora look bad.

I tend to think that a feeding frenzy developed. It is somewhat difficult to make a "friendly" atmosphere when there are users with a massive range of competences, from different countries and comprehension levels in that channel at any one time.

I don't think a poor exchange makes Fedora look bad at all, I think that considering the level of activity in that channel on a day-to-day basis, #fedora is a shining example to other communities on how to run a IRC support channel.

I do think that the feeding frenzies should be totally avoided, as these situations are the ones that ultimately result in tickets being filed, and users feeling unhappy..but I dont think we should immediately jump to action the moment someone mentions in another channel that they aren't happy.

I haven't jumped in on these tickets in the past, but I probably contributed to the perception of a negative experience, so here it goes:

Clearly, the user in question fell short of proper IRC etiquette. For the most part, #fedora is a well tuned machine, given the right sort of participants; primarily, users who are familiar with the IRC support context and who have a clear idea of the problem they'd like to address.

This situation demonstrates that it is easy to become frustrated and impatient with someone who does not have a clear goal in mind, and is not familiar with IRC. I think we can learn from that, and should put together a wiki page to help those in similar situations. It could address formulating good questions ( http://www.karan.org/blog/index.php/2012/01/23/communities-and-questions immediately comes to mind for me, ) effective communication in a busy channel (addressing your conversant by name, pastebins, etc) unsupported issues and why (nvidia, catalyst, vbox, etc) among other common issues.

There's no guarantee that any one person will follow the guidelines there, but it won't be taken as personally coming from a wiki page as it would be if it were doled out, one frustrated line at a time, from someone the user expects to provide help.

Some situations can't be improved, but the question we should ask ourselves is not whether a ban or a quiet is justified - those will be obvious, for the most part - but whether we can improve our responses and policies to prevent escalation or complaint.

--Pete

We discussed this at the 2013-06-27 meeting.

We will try and have helpers be more professional when dealing with people trying to PM.

We will try and remove disruptive people quicker to avoid long running issues that disrupt everyone.