Usually I dislike writing negative reviews but this is really needed. Personally I switched from OpenSUSE to try a new Linux distrobution and switched to Ubuntu. I absolutely loved the community, friendly responsive and all out just splendid experience. There's always bee that wanting to try something new so I switched to Fedora. I installed Fedora 13, with a bit of help from the IRC channel #fedora on FreeNode. After a while back I decided to boot into Fedora (dual booted with Windows) and update my packages as usual. I joined the channel again to get some assistance to upgrading to the Fedora 14.(it was a few months past). I received rather harsh treatment pretty much informing me that I should have stuck with a system like Ubuntu Linux for babies and that information was not to be spoonfed to me. At the time I didn't really care about what was said, I was so insulted that I decided to leave and not come back for a while. Unfortunately I don't have the logs to prove that time. I did however remove myself from that and left my Fedora untouched until a workmate of mine was telling me all the great stuff of Fedora 16. I sign back in today, and check to see if there's an easy way of upgrading without installation media. The responses were rather snarky and not very welcoming at all. Not a great community and ruins my experience of Fedora all together. What's one person right? Well I immediately texted my friend a screenshot of the conversation and sadly I've detered (sp) him from the use of Fedora. He switched to Ubuntu due to the great support. {{{ <afallenhope> hey guys I'm looking to upgrade from Fedora 13 to the latest 16. I was wondering other than installation media (CD/DVD/USB) is the easiest way of doing so using preupgrade as shown on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PreUpgrade? EvilBob> no <DiscordianUK> i.e. run hybridisolinux on it <afallenhope> I'm currently dual booted with Windows 7 on one partition and 3 kernels. for fedora <EvilBob> afallenhope: you need to back up and clean install isolier has quit (Quit: Leaving) <EvilBob> I think I scratched the back of my eye socket while trying to gouge my eye out with a fork. <afallenhope> EvilBob, I don't have installation media (DVD,CD,or USB) so that doesn't work well for me awlei has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) <EvilBob> afallenhope: Sucks to be you <glguy_> <_< <EvilBob> I guess you stick to running windows then }}}
As you can see, EvilBob's crude humour or whatever it may be he feels he needs to invoke. Put on a personal all he may want, but personally I don't see the reason for the snarkiness over a simple question. The conversation continues.. {{{ <DiscordianUK> afallenhope did you hope the magic pixies would do the install for you? <afallenhope> what's the point of http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PreUpgrade than ? <glguy_> DiscordianUK: did you mean PXEs? <EvilBob> afallenhope: Upgrades to F16 have been very problematic. kevix (~kevin@pool-98-113-63-95.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) has left #fedora <DiscordianUK> well good point glguy_ PXE would be a way <glguy_> because I've installed a few Fedora 16s via network install <EvilBob> afallenhope: using preupgrade is perhaps the worst option <EvilBob> afallenhope: I call it preFAILupgrade because of how well it works <DiscordianUK> But I'm guessing afallenhope is on a laptop <afallenhope> DiscordianUK, correct. <DiscordianUK> (from the no media thing) <glguy_> not all laptops are without PXE <EvilBob> He got F13 on it some how <DiscordianUK> Indeed <DiscordianUK> Mine does PXE <DiscordianUK> and I keep a USB pen drive handy <DiscordianUK> although mine does have a DVD drive <EvilBob> afallenhope: Suck it up, buckle down and do the install DiscordianUK refuses to buy PCs without optical drives <EvilBob> afallenhope: any upgrade from F13-F16 is going to be ugly based on the experience we have seen. <afallenhope> how is one to do the install if I don't have the media ? it doesn't really make sense. I'll just buy a USB cd thinger <afallenhope> I appreciate the words of wisdom / warning though <DiscordianUK> A USB pen drive can be used afallenhope <EvilBob> afallenhope: How did you get F13 on it then? <glguy_> afallenhope: you take a blank usb or cd and you make the media <EvilBob> Quit dicking around <afallenhope> EvilBob, I used a USB CD bay <afallenhope> (my friend's) <glguy_> afallenhope: do you have a flash drive? <EvilBob> so it boots to USB <afallenhope> glguy, not large enough for the installation media <EvilBob> put the DVD image on a stick <EvilBob> I guess you stick to running windows then FranciscoD points afallenhope to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraLiveCD/USBHowTo <FranciscoD> not even enough for a live? <FranciscoD> 700mb? Pikachu_2014 (~Pikachu_2@85-169-120-19.rev.numericable.fr) has joined #fedora <afallenhope> I can try my phone.. lol but that's an Android <DiscordianUK> Oh my <EvilBob> What did you do to piss your friend off that they will not let you use their USB optical drive again? <DiscordianUK> Go and buy a USB 8Gb pen drive <EvilBob> Perhaps you should work on fixign that friendship }}}
Again the snarkiness and rather uncooth behaviour of EvilBob assuming personal affairs that is none of his business. When I join a channel I wish to feel welcomed and not like an idiot. The full log has been attached for a better view.
All in all I really feel that more people would enjoy their experiences with nicer staff. YOU are not GOD or whatever higher entity you do believe in, otherwise you'd call the shots. You're simply a servant assisting. Play by the rules.
Thank you for your time.
Full IRC log. irc log
I'm going to assume this: "YOU are not GOD or whatever higher entity you do believe in, otherwise you'd call the shots. You're simply a servant assisting. Play by the rules." is nothing more than a very odd way of saying "I felt disrespected." Reporter also uses the words "I want to feel welcome" and "I don't want to feel like an idiot." and "ruins my experience".
Overall, I get the picture that ticket reporter had a poor emotional experience in the channel. I'd like to caution people to respond on the technical merits of the advice he was given. For all I know, the technical advice was spot on, and ticket reporter was a little stubborn. However, sometimes, giving somebody excellent advice and a poor emotional experience is worse than no advice and a good emotional experience.
We're, most of us, volunteers here. Unlike technical knowledge, which once acquired, never runs out, giving people emotional support takes energy. Perhaps we can try to censor ourselves a little bit when we notice ourselves running out of 'feelgood' to give to people. I think the feeling people leave with is more important than the quality of the advice they leave with.
I'm sorry you had a poor experience.
From what I can see people were giving advise ("Do a clean install") and trying to help you find a way ("Do you have a usb key? see the usb howto"). If Evilbob's comments were upsetting to you, perhaps /ignore them? It just seemed like he was trying to inject some humor into things.
Keep in mind that everyone in #fedora is a volunteer.
I think we need to be quicker to see when someone is becoming offended by attempts at humor and stop, but looking at the logs, I don't see any indication of that. Only this ticket (thanks for filing it) lets us know that. How can we better tell this situation? Perhaps speaking up "Please, lets stick to the technical" or something would let us know?
Evilbob is a big contributor in #fedora, I am always impressed by his willingness to help people, his ability to explain things and his extensive technical knowledge. He's put countless of hours into giving people free, high quality tech support and I have massive respect for him.
Still.. what do you mean with "just trying to inject a little humor"? Humor at the expense of somebody else is not funny.
Comments like "Sucks to be you" take some of your own stress away, but the absolute best case they have no effect on the other person. Usually, they make the other guy feel a little worse. And sometimes, they make the other guy feel a lot worse. Of course, they should be able to 'take a joke' but what I'm talking about, if you find you constantly need to take jabs at people in the channel to relieve some of [boredom, stress, whatever], then you run a bigger risk of eventually giving somebody a bad feeling.
Purely from a "making the other guy feel better" perspective, a better way to phrase it would be "Well, I don't think there is any other way." (or even "Sorry, I don't think there is any other way.")
I can certainly imagine that this gets old after X amount of hours in the channel, but perhaps channel regulars can collectively take it as a challenge to always make people leave with a good feeling?
This user had only one desire from my point of view and that was to argue once they did not like the answer they were given. "I don't have installation media (DVD,CD,or USB)" I suppose bit fairies were going to do the install for them? Yes, I am sorry if you do not have any media to facilitate an install, it sucks to be them, do something about it and quit wasting other people's time with impossible dreams. There are many many ways to install Fedora™ all are documented in one way or another a number of them in the easy to find install guide.
Others in the channel overlooking the FACT that the user some how was able to install Fedora™ 13 in the past only compounded and muddied the user's issue. It is worth noting also that the user did include the complete log of their interaction, without time/date stamps, that day showing their belligerence and desire to argue. What was "* Looking up IP number for EvilBob... Host fedora/bobjensen not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)" all about?
"When I join a channel I wish to feel welcomed and not like an idiot." You were welcomed, I answered your question, If you feel like an idiot that is your problem, not anyone else's. I simply gave you the information how you processed it and what you did with it is on you, not me. There are no "staff" only volunteers that come and go. I am no one's servant, especially not your's.
"Play by the rules" I did. If I hadn't you would KNOW what I really think. If people are coming to IRC and need to "feel better" leaving they are in for a rude awakening. Even more rude than I am alleged to be.
-- Bob
[[Image(http://bobjensen.com/stop_hating.jpg)]]
This was discussed at todays meeting.
Thanks for the feedback.
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