This feedback is: {{{ [ ] Positive [ ] Negative [X] Neutral }}}
'''My IRC nick is:''' bookwar
'''Please briefly describe the interaction that caused you to file this ticket:'''
The situation when people are kicked or banned from the support channel, while they ask fedora-related questions in a reasonable and polite way seems to be wrong for me.
Once I saw how the person was sent out because he wasn't a Fedora user. He asked if there exists one specific package in Fedora repos. And he said he could not use yum to find it. Instead of giving him link for koji or Fedora package database or direct answer, DiscordianUK said "we support only Fedora users here".
Today it was fenrus02, who kicked user for asking rpm and gpg key question because the question was motivated by Fedora Core 3.
Sure, I have read the channel FAQ that this is "Fedora End-user Support Channel" and also I am aware of what EOL means and I agree that it is important to persuade people to switch to supported versions. But I think the primary goal of this channel is - to provide help and to educate each other about Fedora-way of doing things. And, thus, any technical question asked properly should be welcomed despite of its origin.
Of course it is a completely different situation, when user asks version-specific question. When the issue can not be modelled in the current Fedora release, the EOL rule is indeed justified. And I can only suggest to use "we cannot support all the old versions here" instead of "get out, we don't support you" kind of arguments.
'''Please describe what action or positive change could be adopted based on this feedback:'''
I don't expect any specific actions. I think you do great job in general. But, please, when you decide what's appropriate and what's not, try to think about question itself, not who asked it and why he did it.
And also, when you think that something is inappropriate, don't throw the user away as a piece of garbage. It is the question itself which is inappropriate, not the person who asked it. The person could come later and ask something better next time.
And the main idea of my ticket is: People, who don't use current Fedora at this very moment, also have rights to ask general technical Fedora-related questions at the Fedora Support IRC channel.
'''Any additional notes or logs:'''
These are just two examples I have in mind right now, but I don't want to go into details here. This is the general idea I am speaking about.
{{{ (11:54:25 PM) Edulix: can somebody please tell which fedora package provides the binary xsltproc? (11:55:25 PM) bookwar1: libxslt (11:55:32 PM) Edulix: bookwar1: thanks (12:00:35 AM) EvilBob: Edulix: the yum man page talks about "provides" (12:01:12 AM) Edulix: EvilBob: cool (12:01:15 AM) EvilBob: Edulix: So "yum provides */xsltproc" would get you the desired info (12:01:35 AM) EvilBob: Edulix: You can also use rpm to look this up (12:01:46 AM) DiscordianUK: or repoquery (12:02:19 AM) EvilBob: Edulix: You would QUERY the database for the FILE in question, see the man page for more info (12:02:29 AM) Edulix: EvilBob: but I don't have fedora installed so (12:02:35 AM) Edulix: I need something online :P (12:02:37 AM) EvilBob: Sure (12:03:10 AM) EvilBob: No time like NOW to get it installed (12:03:15 AM) randomuser: Edulix, other package managers probably have this feature too (12:04:21 AM) Edulix: EvilBob: I'm creating a package for fedora,opensuse,mandriva,debian,ubuntu,windows,linux,mac... (12:05:21 AM) Edulix: EvilBob: and no I'm not installing all those, I'll let others do it, I'm using opensuse build service to create the package for all the linuxes and then ask people to test it (12:05:40 AM) DiscordianUK: yikes (12:06:37 AM) hicham: Edulix: there are online websites (12:06:42 AM) hicham: that provides these tools (12:06:46 AM) Edulix: hicham: please tell me =) (12:06:52 AM) EvilBob: You can't be bothered to test your own bits... (12:06:55 AM) EvilBob: WOW (12:07:10 AM) DiscordianUK: I'm tiring of this (12:07:58 AM) Edulix: sorry people I didn't ask you why are you helping me, I just asked a question related to fedora, and if you want you can help, I think I'm not trolling or anything ?¿ (12:08:20 AM) DiscordianUK: you aren't running fedora (12:08:43 AM) DiscordianUK: This is f14/f15 support (12:08:47 AM) bookwar1: DiscordianUK: his question was ok, don't fight (12:08:56 AM) EvilBob: well this is a Fedora enduser support channel (12:08:58 AM) DiscordianUK: nor do you intend to (12:09:07 AM) DiscordianUK: precisely (12:09:13 AM) Fieldy: he got his question answered anyway, i'm sure we can relax (12:09:20 AM) Edulix: ok sorry. what fedora channel should I use? (12:09:26 AM) Edulix: Fieldy: sure =) (12:09:33 AM) EvilBob: Edulix: #fedora-devel (12:09:39 AM) hicham: Edulix: http://rpm.pbone.net/ provides that feature (12:09:43 AM) Edulix: EvilBob: thanks (12:09:54 AM) EvilBob: Edulix: Let them help you with your mutant packaging (12:10:11 AM) Edulix: hehe yeah nice term (12:10:11 AM) EvilBob: It's really the best place for that kind of help (12:10:48 AM) EvilBob: Foreign just did not seem right (12:11:24 AM) EvilBob: Good Luck to you (12:11:45 AM) Edulix: thanks you people for the help (12:12:10 AM) Edulix: my next devel question will be asked there for sure =) (12:13:50 AM) bookwar1: it is kind of strange how you create such a big problem from 1-second-questions here, he didn't make any troubles and was polite enough, why not just answer and forget about it ? (12:14:36 AM) DiscordianUK: Do you not get that this is an end-user channel? (12:14:39 AM) Fieldy: and then, ironically, you extend the issue (12:14:43 AM) Fieldy: you = bookwar1 (12:14:51 AM) Fieldy: we had moved on (12:15:03 AM) bookwar1: Fieldy: yes, sorry for that (12:15:49 AM) DiscordianUK: You don't run f14/f15 or want to you ain't coming in (12:16:51 AM) bookwar1: DiscordianUK: this is stupid, and i will try to participate in the next irc-support-meeting to discuss this }}}
{{{ (01:54:20 AM) Lantizia: hey how can I import this key directly into rpm in one line?? http://keys.gnupg.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x4F2A6FD2 (01:54:36 AM) Lantizia: I've tried rpm --import "http://keys.gnupg.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x4F2A6FD2" but I get "import read failed" (01:55:36 AM) dvanstone: Lantizia- * man rpm (01:55:58 AM) mutk: Lantizia, That URL ends up sending a html file (01:56:17 AM) Lantizia: mutk, exactly - i dunno how to request it without html (01:56:47 AM) mutk: LatThat would be up to the people that provide it I guess (01:57:19 AM) dvanstone: mutk- yes (01:57:21 AM) Lantizia: mutk, do you know of any other popular keyserver that I can use with rpm -import (01:58:02 AM) dvanstone: Lantizia- * have you tried mit (01:58:13 AM) mutk: Heh keys.gnupg.net port 80 redirects to http://mud.stack.nl (01:58:26 AM) mutk: There goes my afternoon productivity.. (01:59:36 AM) Lantizia: dvanstone, yeah you get html there too (01:59:55 AM) dvanstone: Lantizia- * man rpm (02:00:14 AM) mutk: It might be easy enough to script something to grab just the key text (02:00:29 AM) Lantizia: no man on here (yet) - trying to set up yum to get back some basic utils (02:01:00 AM) dvanstone: hmm (02:01:28 AM) Lantizia: why is there something in man rpm that is useful? or your just giving your default answer? :D (02:02:39 AM) dvanstone: hmm (02:03:10 AM) hays|afk is now known as hays (02:03:55 AM) mutk: Lantizia, https://fedoraproject.org/keys that shows the op=GET arg in the url.. http://keys.gnupg.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x34E166FA&op=get (02:04:14 AM) Lantizia: mutk, as does the link I already provided in channel (02:04:44 AM) mutk: Ah yes in different order .. Ok (02:04:57 AM) fenrus02: why would you use the keyserver instead of the iso you downloaded? (02:05:10 AM) Lantizia: fenrus02, you mean for FC3? :P hehe (02:05:17 AM) Lantizia: i wonder which FC3 rpm had the key in it (02:06:42 AM) fenrus02: @fc3eol (02:06:43 AM) fedbot: Fedora Core 3 is END OF LIFE and no longer supported. See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora-EOL-Support. It went EOL 6 years, 3 weeks, 3 days, 11 hours, 6 minutes, and 43 seconds ago (02:07:14 AM) Lantizia: fenrus02, you realise your not the first to say this - and you also realise I've known that little nugget of information for years now (02:07:16 AM) Lantizia: give up :P (02:07:36 AM) ffranz-afk is now known as ffranz (02:08:13 AM) fenrus02: Lantizia, then you also realize you are HORRIBLY off topic here. Great. Try #fedora-eol if it still exists. (02:08:53 AM) Lantizia: fenrus02, how? i'm just talking about the rpm utility and it importing gpg keys! (02:09:07 AM) fenrus02: Lantizia, on a dead distro that no longer applies here. (02:09:21 AM) Lantizia: unless fedora stopped using rpm?! oh wait you've not (02:09:26 AM) fenrus02: not all the rpm versions are the same (02:09:58 AM) fenrus02: Lantizia, do you really want to troll and/or be a twit? i suggest you stop now. (02:10:49 AM) Lantizia: fenrus02, your the troller here - attempting to stop helping someone just because they mentioned the hilarity of it being fc3... the issue is if/how rpm can import from a keyserver without need of the file being downloaded first (02:11:46 AM) fenrus02: @kick Lantizia (02:11:47 AM) Lantizia left the room (Kicked by fedbot (fenrus02)). (02:11:52 AM) Lantizia [~lantizia@cpc22-stok16-2-0-cust96.1-4.cable.virginmedia.com] entered the room. (02:11:54 AM) Lantizia: very mature (02:12:02 AM) fenrus02: that was your last warning. (02:12:04 AM) mutk: Lantizia, Use gpg tool to import the keys using keys.gnupg.net and then export the key to a file and import with rpm.. The keys.gnupg.net site seems intended for gpg tool and nothing else. (02:12:18 AM) Lantizia: mutk, thought of that too - but no gpg utility only gpg-error (02:12:28 AM) mutk: what ? (02:12:35 AM) Lantizia: see i'm trying to set up yum (need the gpg key for it) to get these basic utils back (02:13:00 AM) dvanstone: Lantizia- * uname -r (02:13:12 AM) Lantizia: dvanstone, why? (02:13:48 AM) dvanstone: we only provide support for 15 16 here (02:15:12 AM) dvanstone: hmm (02:15:33 AM) Lantizia: not wanting to suffer the "wrath" of fenrus02 again... but has no one stopped to think that some people might want to run fc3 or keep running it for either whimsical reasons or because it's an old server they've virtualised for reference later on if they need it... it's not like I chose fc3! I'm a debian user! and it's not like me asking for help in here is causing the ABSOLUTE FLOOD of fedora 15 and 16 users a probl (02:15:33 AM) Lantizia: em - of which none are talking at present or needing help (02:15:44 AM) Lantizia: this isn't #ubuntu after all (02:16:06 AM) dvanstone: Lantizia- * it has been suggested -eol (02:16:10 AM) mutk: Lantizia, Use wget to save the file, edit it to clean it up. Import with rpm --import (02:16:24 AM) Lantizia: mutk, yeah was hoping for something more elegant than that (02:16:33 AM) Lantizia: i guess I could use sed on it (02:16:43 AM) mutk: Like a scipt, as I suggested early. Would be easy to do. (02:16:44 AM) dvanstone: Lantizia- * plaese (02:16:46 AM) ryeth: lol i'm downloading fedora now because i will have it in an upcoming class, thought i'd join the room to see what people are talking about (02:16:49 AM) mutk: script* (02:16:56 AM) ryeth: don't need help yet, but sure i probably will be soon (02:17:10 AM) Lantizia: ryeth, then I'll shut up }}}
Wow, when did it become off-topic in #fedora to ask general Fedora questions? I must have missed that. I thought we wanted to educate and teach people in the channel?
There should be no reason either of these individual should have been treated with the disrespect that they received. I think people need to become much or tolerant or maybe take some time away from the channel to rethink why you are there!
FTR, I did not @kick Lantizia because he was using fc3 at all. Sorry for the confusion. He was booted for being a rude obnoxious twit. Nothing to do with his EOL software.
Speaking only for myself, the things I can see that we could do better here:
a) Try and be less terse. If someone isn't understanding you, try and come up with a more complete sentence that could help... ie 'We only support Fedora" vs "This is an end user tech support channel, we can't help you much with development, perhaps you could try #fedora-devel? Sorry."
b) Try and always be polite, even if the user isn't being or doesn't seem to deserve it. Ie, calling someone a twit and troll isn't a good idea, even when they may be such. Just let the conversation go, and/or note that channel policy is not to support end of life releases.
Top and inline Post, sue me. I am the nick EvilBob in the logs.
Neutral? It's a negative I shows failure.
'''My IRC nick is:''' bookwar '''Please briefly describe the interaction that caused you to file this ticket:'''
You are covering two things, two situations in one ticket. I'm really only interested in the part that involves me.
The situation when people are kicked or banned from the support channel, while they ask fedora-related questions in a reasonable and polite way seems to be wrong for me. Once I saw how the person was sent out because he wasn't a Fedora user. He asked if there exists one specific package in Fedora repos. And he said he could not use yum to find it. Instead of giving him link for koji or Fedora package database or direct answer, DiscordianUK said "we support only Fedora users here".
I pasted up the log relevant to the above description. I'll be inserting comments as I see fit. Again I'm only interested in the parts that involve me.
{{{ (11:54:25 PM) Edulix: can somebody please tell which fedora package provides the binary xsltproc? (11:55:25 PM) bookwar1: libxslt (11:55:32 PM) Edulix: bookwar1: thanks (12:00:35 AM) EvilBob: Edulix: the yum man page talks about "provides"
My goal is almost always to educate users, Directing a user to a man page to gain knowledge is the way they help themselves.
(12:01:12 AM) Edulix: EvilBob: cool (12:01:15 AM) EvilBob: Edulix: So "yum provides */xsltproc" would get you the desired info
I made my initial direction more clear using an example.
(12:01:35 AM) EvilBob: Edulix: You can also use rpm to look this up (12:01:46 AM) DiscordianUK: or repoquery (12:02:19 AM) EvilBob: Edulix: You would QUERY the database for the FILE in question, see the man page for more info
Again a second attempt at educating the user.
(12:02:29 AM) Edulix: EvilBob: but I don't have fedora installed so (12:02:35 AM) Edulix: I need something online :P (12:02:37 AM) EvilBob: Sure (12:03:10 AM) EvilBob: No time like NOW to get it installed
At this point the user makes his situation more clear, he does not have Fedora. No time like the present to get on board trying to welcome them in to the fold.
(12:03:15 AM) randomuser: Edulix, other package managers probably have this feature too (12:04:21 AM) Edulix: EvilBob: I'm creating a package for fedora,opensuse,mandriva,debian,ubuntu,windows,linux,mac... (12:05:21 AM) Edulix: EvilBob: and no I'm not installing all those, I'll let others do it, I'm using opensuse build service to create the package for all the linuxes and then ask people to test it
The user gets in to finally more relevent details about his mission... I wish he had brought that to the table from the start.
(12:05:40 AM) DiscordianUK: yikes (12:06:37 AM) hicham: Edulix: there are online websites (12:06:42 AM) hicham: that provides these tools (12:06:46 AM) Edulix: hicham: please tell me =) (12:06:52 AM) EvilBob: You can't be bothered to test your own bits... (12:06:55 AM) EvilBob: WOW
Yeah, a little humer/sarcasm could have been done without the user did not seem to have translucent lily white skin so I felt it was ok to cut up a little, seemed like a nice enough guy.
(12:07:10 AM) DiscordianUK: I'm tiring of this (12:07:58 AM) Edulix: sorry people I didn't ask you why are you helping me, I just asked a question related to fedora, and if you want you can help, I think I'm not trolling or anything ?¿ (12:08:20 AM) DiscordianUK: you aren't running fedora (12:08:43 AM) DiscordianUK: This is f14/f15 support (12:08:47 AM) bookwar1: DiscordianUK: his question was ok, don't fight (12:08:56 AM) EvilBob: well this is a Fedora enduser support channel
I was looking for an online tool for the user to get his info from and was failing. I pointed out that it is an enduser channel to hopefully turn the heat down.
(12:08:58 AM) DiscordianUK: nor do you intend to (12:09:07 AM) DiscordianUK: precisely (12:09:13 AM) Fieldy: he got his question answered anyway, i'm sure we can relax (12:09:20 AM) Edulix: ok sorry. what fedora channel should I use? (12:09:26 AM) Edulix: Fieldy: sure =) (12:09:33 AM) EvilBob: Edulix: #fedora-devel
After not finding the links I was looking for I decided I would pass him off to the -devel channel where those with more experience hang out and would hopefully help more than I could.
(12:09:39 AM) hicham: Edulix: http://rpm.pbone.net/ provides that feature (12:09:43 AM) Edulix: EvilBob: thanks (12:09:54 AM) EvilBob: Edulix: Let them help you with your mutant packaging (12:10:11 AM) Edulix: hehe yeah nice term (12:10:11 AM) EvilBob: It's really the best place for that kind of help (12:10:48 AM) EvilBob: Foreign just did not seem right (12:11:24 AM) EvilBob: Good Luck to you (12:11:45 AM) Edulix: thanks you people for the help (12:12:10 AM) Edulix: my next devel question will be asked there for sure =)
He got the help he wanted, in the end he was thankful, and was happy about it.
(12:13:50 AM) bookwar1: it is kind of strange how you create such a big problem from 1-second-questions here, he didn't make any troubles and was polite enough, why not just answer and forget about it ? (12:14:36 AM) DiscordianUK: Do you not get that this is an end-user channel? (12:14:39 AM) Fieldy: and then, ironically, you extend the issue (12:14:43 AM) Fieldy: you = bookwar1 (12:14:51 AM) Fieldy: we had moved on (12:15:03 AM) bookwar1: Fieldy: yes, sorry for that (12:15:49 AM) DiscordianUK: You don't run f14/f15 or want to you ain't coming in (12:16:51 AM) bookwar1: DiscordianUK: this is stupid, and i will try to participate in the next irc-support-meeting to discuss this }}}
I'm going to snip off the added bits that cover fenrus here.
This is my POV on it I thought I did well helping the user and tolerating his moving endgame.
-- Bob
Thank you for replies.
I marked it neutral because I was asking about channel rules in general, not the two particular cases. Now it is clear for me that there is no issues with channel guidelines only some misunderstanding in specific situations. It happens, and kevin has answered this part.
This is a good habit I myself need to get used to. I tend to be fast-forward most of the times. )
Agreed again.
I think you did well in this discussion (may be we could do better with links to the online package bases, but ok, we hadn't them at that time). I wrote the ticket mostly based on this phrase: "You don't run f14/f15 or want to you ain't coming in" which was posed as a Strict Channel Rule. Since it is not, the situation is resolved for me.
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