Ticket #243 (closed task: fixed)

Opened 5 years ago

Last modified 5 years ago

New entry of 'Build packages for which Fedora is upstream for all language translators' review & correction' for F12 schedule

Reported by: noriko Owned by:
Priority: major Keywords: meeting
Cc: ankit, raven Blocked By:
Blocking:

Description

Proposal topic

Regarding Fedora 12 schedule, Fedora Localization Project would like to propose one entry of task addition to Development team task schedule.

Build Test packages for review (Tue 2009-09-03 Thu 2009-09-15)

Overview and Problem

One of Fedora Localization Project's mission is to localize Fedora packages. There are two major issues we have been experiencing over releases. One is that some packages have simply not included our translation file for building, resulting that even the package has been localized it is NOT available to the public. Another is that translators work on PO file so unable to see how the packages look like until released. In other words, translators never know where particular string to be appeared in UI.

Solution Overview

First issue can be resolved if every packager actually carries out the existing task of "20. Software: Rebuild all translated packages Tue 2009-09-15 Tue 2009-09-22" [1] to guarantee the rebuilt. And to address second problem, we are proposing this request. The Build Test packages for review is to build packages (default install) by packagers for translators' review in UI with the aspect of QA. This might also allow packagers to have a chance to detect any bugs on inclusion of translation in early stage. The dates can be flexible.

[1]:http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-devel-tasks.html

Active Ingredients

To have same thing happened in Fedora documentation translation, after docs-trans schedule meeting, Docs team added the entry for their schedule and will be building their docs html with translation as "review and correction" period. Web team has already had 'Review and correct website translations' entry in their schedule.

I am not bright at Devel schedule, so I apologize in advance if this is totally irrelevant request, since it can be quite complicated task especially for Development team. It would be much appreciated if you could discuss it's feasibility.

Owners

Who owns this proposal?

Change History

comment:1 follow-up: ↓ 2 Changed 5 years ago by kkofler

I think this needs a title which is more descriptive to somebody outside of the l10n project. What's a "test package"? What's "review"? Which packages are affected? This is all explained in your proposal, but it cannot be inferred from the title in any way.

comment:2 in reply to: ↑ 1 Changed 5 years ago by noriko

  • Summary changed from New entry of 'Build Test packages for review' for F12 schedule to New entry of 'Build Fedora packages installed by default for all languages translators' review & correction' for F12 schedule

Replying to kkofler:

I think this needs a title which is more descriptive to somebody outside of the l10n project. What's a "test package"? What's "review"? Which packages are affected? This is all explained in your proposal, but it cannot be inferred from the title in any way.

Thank you for prompt reply, I've changed the title. How's that?

comment:3 Changed 5 years ago by ankit

I think translators do translate packages which are not installed by default but are important to the end users. So, the task is applicable to all packages/package maintainers where translations has been updated.

So, I think the title could be Build all translated packages for translation review, which should be clear enough for package maintainers to understand. There could be better words than this, please respond if you find any.

comment:4 Changed 5 years ago by ankit

  • Cc ankit added

comment:5 Changed 5 years ago by kkofler

  • Summary changed from New entry of 'Build Fedora packages installed by default for all languages translators' review & correction' for F12 schedule to New entry of 'Build Fedora packages installed by default for all language translators' review & correction' for F12 schedule

With the typo/misspelling fixed (see my edit to the title), sure. :-) (In English, you drop the plural 's' in such compound noun phrases.)

comment:6 Changed 5 years ago by kkofler

  • Summary changed from New entry of 'Build Fedora packages installed by default for all language translators' review & correction' for F12 schedule to New entry of 'Build packages for which Fedora is upstream for all language translators' review & correction' for F12 schedule

But actually, ankit is right that "installed by default" is the wrong criterion. But "important to the end users" is also not correct. The packages our l10n processes apply to are only packages for which we are upstream. Things like KDE or GNOME follow completely separate translation processes and aren't handled by our translators at all.

comment:7 Changed 5 years ago by ankit

oh yes, "where Fedora is upstream". That's correct. Thanks!

comment:8 Changed 5 years ago by raven

  • Cc raven added

comment:9 Changed 5 years ago by jstanley

  • Keywords meeting added

comment:10 Changed 5 years ago by kkofler

I'll most likely miss today's meeting, so here's my vote: +1 for this proposal, it makes sense and a reasonable rationale is provided.

comment:11 Changed 5 years ago by ankit

I think I missed one thing to inform here, which should be important while taking the decision of whether to rebuild *all* packages or only packages where Fedora is upstream.

We have some translators in the FLP group who does translations of Gnome/KDE applications as well as other independent applications like pidgin, xchat, etc. Moreover, under Fedora desktop majority of the applications do come from either Gnome or KDE and few from some other independent projects.

So, if it's possible to rebuild *all* packages (with latest translations) where translation is updated by the build date, it would be of great help for translators to review translation everything possible that's shipped along with Fedora.

Thanks! Ankit

comment:12 Changed 5 years ago by kkofler

So how do you want to deal with upstream release schedules? Do you want us to take SVN snapshots of kde-l10n just to get the latest translations? What about things like KDE extragear or GNOME where the translation is shipped as part of the package? I'm opposed to that. Projects from other upstreams should be imported on their schedule.

comment:13 Changed 5 years ago by ankit

Taking latest git/svn snapshots of Gnome/KDE applications' and other independent projects' translations should do the job.

However there are (very less though) chances of translation errors that can break the builds, in which case package maintainer can decide to not to include latest translation OR inform respective language co-ordinator from FLP to file a bug & get it resolved.

comment:14 Changed 5 years ago by kkofler

Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense, we take releases which are actually tested and released as stable by upstream, taking a random snapshot just to have the very latest translations just doesn't make sense (so if that's what you're proposing, I have to -1 your proposal).

comment:15 Changed 5 years ago by ankit

Gnome 2.28 stable release is coming on 23rd September. So, we should take Gnome 2.28 (and translations) to Fedora 12 after September 23rd only. Is that what you are trying to say?

Btw, translations play a very important role for the product!

comment:16 Changed 5 years ago by kkofler

In this case we take prereleases, on GNOME's schedule for prereleases. For example, Rawhide has libgnome 2.27.5 now, that's a prerelease for 2.28 (the odd number 2.27 is the development branch for 2.28) and includes a prerelease of the translations aimed at 2.28.

But note that we stop taking prereleases when we reach the branching of the release we're going to ship! For example, KDE 4.3 is now branched, so we're taking 4.3.0, then 4.3.1 etc. So if you want KDE translations in F12, make sure they're on the branch for 4.3 translations, not just trunk/4.4 translations. And I don't see why we should be taking a random snapshot between 4.3.0 and 4.3.1 (or between 4.3.1 and 4.3.2 or whatever) rather than what upstream actually released.

comment:17 Changed 5 years ago by ankit

I am not bothered about KDE much, since major translations for KDE 4.3.x must have already been submitted by translators as due was 4th August for the release.

Concern here is Gnome. Looking at Gnome 2.28's schedule: http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointTwentyseven translations will be freezed by 21st of September by upstream, because 21st is the stable tarball due.

Do you think it's possible to include Gnome 2.28 translations submitted by 21st of September to Fedora 12? (Gnome 2.28 will be stable by then).

comment:18 follow-ups: ↓ 21 ↓ 22 Changed 5 years ago by jstanley

I don't see any reason why not - the translations come for free with the upstream tarball release - no additional effort on the part of FLP is required to get them AFIAK. I think that's what Kevin was getting at.

comment:19 Changed 5 years ago by notting

To put it a different way - this ticket seems to be adding something to Fedora's translation schedule for pulling translations submitted through Fedora's translation deadline for Fedora packages. That makes sense, as we're setting the Fedora translation deadline.

For other projects Fedora translators may work on (GNOME, KDE, etc.), we need to work on *their* translation deadlines - they must be submitted by whenever their upstream freezes their translations.

comment:20 follow-up: ↓ 25 Changed 5 years ago by kevin

So, what packages does this apply to?

Everything at: https://translate.fedoraproject.org/projects/

or something else? Is there a way to generate a list of all packages affected?

comment:21 in reply to: ↑ 18 Changed 5 years ago by ankit

Replying to jstanley:

I don't see any reason why not - the translations come for free with the upstream tarball release -

Ok, that would be good.

no additional effort on the part of FLP is required to get them AFIAK. I think that's what Kevin was getting at.

Additional effort from FLP should be required, in terms of *reviewing* the translations submitted by/to upstream. There are chances of bugs in upstream packages' translations. I am sure we would like the bugs (of translation) to be resolved before we ship them along with Fedora.

So, what I would like to propose for the translation schedule is:

  1. "Software Translation Period (POT to PO)" - Tue 2009-08-04 to Thu 2009-09-10

=> This task is for translations of packages where upstream is Fedora. => And FLP would be fine with this task. No change is required from FLP's side w.r.t this task.

  1. "Build packages for which Fedora is upstream for all language translators' review & correction" - Thu 2009-09-10 to Mon 2009-09-14

=> This task should be renamed to "Build all translatable packages for translators' review" => The date should be modified to Tue 2009-09-22 to Sat 2009-09-26 (To accommodate upstream Gnome's latest translations in the latest builds)

  1. "Review Software Translations" - Tue 2009-09-15 to Tue 2009-09-22

=> dates should be changed to Sun 2009-09-27 to Sat 2009-10-03 (if proposed change in the task 2 is accepted and possible) => Translators will review & correct translations and make it upstream

comment:22 in reply to: ↑ 18 Changed 5 years ago by ankit

Replying to jstanley:

I don't see any reason why not - the translations come for free with the upstream tarball release

Ok, that would be good.

  • no additional effort on the part of FLP is required to get them AFIAK. I think that's what Kevin was getting at.

Additional effort from FLP should be required, in terms of *reviewing* the translations submitted by/to upstream. There are chances of bugs in upstream packages' translations. I am sure we would like the bugs (of translation) to be resolved before we ship them along with Fedora.

So, what I would like to propose for the translation schedule is:

  1. "Software Translation Period (POT to PO)" - Tue 2009-08-04 to Thu 2009-09-10

=> This task is for translations of packages where upstream is Fedora.

=> And FLP would be fine with this task. No change is required from FLP's side w.r.t this task.

  1. "Build packages for which Fedora is upstream for all language translators' review & correction" - Thu 2009-09-10 to Mon 2009-09-14.

=> This task should be renamed to "Build all translatable packages for translators' review".

=> Task is definitely taken by Package maintainers, so it should be in the devel task list as well.

=> The date should be modified to Tue 2009-09-22 to Sat 2009-09-26 (To accommodate upstream Gnome's latest translations in the latest builds).

  1. "Review Software Translations" - Tue 2009-09-15 to Tue 2009-09-22.

=> dates should be changed to Sun 2009-09-27 to Sat 2009-10-03 (if proposed change in the task 2 is accepted and possible).

=> Translators will review & correct translations and make it upstream.

comment:23 Changed 5 years ago by kkofler

This task should be renamed to "Build all translatable packages for translators' review".

This is still complete and utter nonsense, upstream translation teams aren't working on our schedule at all, and even if our teams fix upstream translation bugs, they'll have to do it on upstream's schedule, not ours, so they'll end up in the next upstream release, which we'll pick up in a timely manner (once it's actually released). It makes no sense for us to come and take random untested SVN snapshots of code just for translations.

It could be done for kde-l10n (because that's a separate package for translations only), but even that would be a PITA as kde-l10n is huge and as snapshots won't necessarily build at all (even the released tarballs often need respinning by upstream or patching to actually build). Plus, the translations may have changed to accomodate code changes which will be only in the next release (though that's rare on release branches due to string freeezes).

The date should be modified to Tue 2009-09-22 to Sat 2009-09-26 (To accommodate upstream Gnome's latest translations in the latest builds).

There are other upstreams than just GNOME!

Due to all of the above, I'll definitely vote against any proposal to make translation deadlines affect packages for which Fedora is not upstream. If you want to work on upstream translations, you need to work with upstream translation projects on upstream's translation schedule.

comment:24 Changed 5 years ago by ankit

All, thanks for your time and inputs.

So, FLP can expect a new task in the schedule "Build packages for which Fedora is upstream for all language translators' review & correction" to happen.

Thanks!

comment:25 in reply to: ↑ 20 ; follow-up: ↓ 26 Changed 5 years ago by noriko

Replying to kevin:

So, what packages does this apply to?

Everything at: https://translate.fedoraproject.org/projects/

Yes, if all of those can cover it would be great. Translators especially small teams usually put highest priority to compete translation for Essentials collection. https://translate.fedoraproject.org/languages/ja/collection/fedora/fedora-12/

Then, the other collections come after such as; https://translate.fedoraproject.org/languages/ja/collection/fedora/various/ https://translate.fedoraproject.org/languages/ja/collection/fedora/virt/

For the above collections, it has been in discussion the way of collections to be constructed atm due to old fashioned, and it may or may not change the structure in the future. It will be great help to know what actually can possibly be rebuild this time, so that it can be taken into account for our future restructure of collections.

comment:26 in reply to: ↑ 25 Changed 5 years ago by noriko

Considering the discussion so far, we at FLSCo would like to get back to you with a suitable list of packages for which Fedora is upstream and translations are done through the infrastructure at translate.fedoraproject.org. This request is for Fedora 12 schedule only. Discussions about other upstream packages or any modules outside the scope of the Fedora Infrastructure at present would be taken up at any other later releases if required.

comment:27 Changed 5 years ago by noriko

For Fedora 12 schedule, here is the packages list.
They are packages for which Fedora is upstream and are string frozen along to Fedora 12 Schedule.
They are all available for translation under Fedora 12 collection at translate.fedoraproject.org.

This proposal will affect the following packages.
It would be appreciated if this proposal could be discussed it's feasibility with the following set of packages.

ABRT >> master
anaconda >> master
authconfig >> tip
chkconfig >> master
comps >> HEAD
desktop-backgrounds >> HEAD
desktop-effects >> master
firstboot >> master
hwbrowser >> tip
im-chooser >> trunk
initscripts >> master
kexec-tools >> HEAD
libuser >> tip
multimedia-menus >> master
policycoreutils >> HEAD
pykickstart >> master
python-meh >> master
readahead >> master
redhat-menus >> HEAD
rhpxl >> master
setroubleshoot >> tip-plugins
setroubleshoot >> tip-framework
setuptool >> master
smolt >> master
smolt >> master-smoon
sos >> trunk
switchdesk >> HEAD
system-config-audit >> tip
system-config-bind >> tip
system-config-boot >> master
system-config-cluster >> HEAD
system-config-date >> master
system-config-datev >> docs
system-config-date >> master-timezones
system-config-display >> master
system-config-firewall >> master
system-config-httpd >> tip
system-config-kdump >> master
system-config-keyboard >> trunk
system-config-kickstart >> master
system-config-language >> trunk
system-config-lvm >> master
system-config-netboot >> trunk
system-config-network >> master
system-config-nfs >> docs
system-config-nfs >> master
system-config-printer >> 1.1.x
system-config-rootpassword >> trunk
system-config-samba >> docs
system-config-samba >> master
system-config-services >> docs
system-config-services >> master
system-config-users >> docs
system-config-users >> master
system-switch-java >> tip
system-switch-mail >> HEAD
usermode >> tip

comment:28 Changed 5 years ago by noriko

Please notice that there are 52 languages already translated with more than 40% completion of Fedora 12 as at Monday, September 7, 2009 at 11:45 UTC.

https://translate.fedoraproject.org/collections/fedora/fedora-12/

It would be highly appreciated if any update on this proposal.

more than 40% completion (52 languages);

pt_BR, es, nl, ja. zh_CN, pt, pa, gu, pl, ru, sv, ta, zh_TW, da, fr, de, hi, it, mr, sr, bn_IN, ko, ml, or, sr@latin, kn, hu, as, te, ca, sk, fi, mai, bg, cs, hr, uk, nb, bs, en_GB, mk, el, id, is, ar, ms, et, bn, sl, ro, cy, tr

btw 24 - 39% (6 languages);

vi, lv, he, si, fa, th

comment:30 Changed 5 years ago by jstanley

  • Resolution set to fixed
  • Status changed from new to closed

This proposal was accepted at the 2009-09-04 FESCo meeting

comment:31 Changed 5 years ago by jstanley

However, especially worthy of note is that the translation team is responsible for:

  • Communicating to the various projects that they need to pull translations into the rawhide package and do a release.
  • Tracking the progress of the rebuilds.

comment:32 Changed 5 years ago by noriko

Thank you for accepting this proposal.
Receiving the acceptance, the action items have been identified. Please have a quick look of 'action item list' at [1] and be aware that those will be happening soon.
It would be highly appreciated any ongoing advise and input.

[1]:https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2009-September/msg00053.html

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