agreed sendmail will be removed from @core (+9,-0)

agreed removal of sendmail from @standard didn't pass (+4,-4,0)

Note: About @standard group might be decided in next release of Fedora.

It was noted to me on IRC that sendmail was removed from the default spin: https://git.fedorahosted.org/cgit/spin-kickstarts.git/commit/?id=c79eede0d761d90a7a522ffc39420d9517136f0a

The precedent for the default spin doing something different than what's in the rest of Fedora seems muddy at best. We probably need to discuss and vote on whether it's fine to do this for sendmail (and syslog too, if the default spin wants to remove rsyslog, we probably should ask them if that's the case).

If someone wants to address the more general issue of how far from the expected feature set the default spin is allowed to deviate that should probably go into a separate ticket.. I don't have good ideas on that atm so I'm only re-opening this for the more specific question.

We're operating under the notion that SIGs have editorial control over the spins they produce.
Also, I'm under the impression that the changes that were approved here will make it so that sendmail and syslog are not on the cloud images either. We're already excluding a bunch of the not-relevant-for-desktop content of @standard from the live image - you want to approve our package list one-by-one ?

I think that rather than dictating the GNOME desktop spin to include rsyslog and sendmail we should seriously consider what should be the default spin of Fedora.

Replying to [comment:5 mclasen]:

We're operating under the notion that SIGs have editorial control over the spins they produce.
Also, I'm under the impression that the changes that were approved here will make it so that sendmail and syslog are not on the cloud images either. We're already excluding a bunch of the not-relevant-for-desktop content of @standard from the live image - you want to approve our package list one-by-one ?

Sure, but GNOME is also default now, so it should accept the FESCo decision to leave sendmail and rsyslog in.

Replying to [comment:6 tmraz]:

I think that rather than dictating the GNOME desktop spin to include rsyslog and sendmail we should seriously consider what should be the default spin of Fedora.

Unless you're willing to elevate it from spin to product, I think that is about the only choice you have left.

Replying to [comment:7 mmaslano]:

Replying to [comment:5 mclasen]:

We're operating under the notion that SIGs have editorial control over the spins they produce.
Also, I'm under the impression that the changes that were approved here will make it so that sendmail and syslog are not on the cloud images either. We're already excluding a bunch of the not-relevant-for-desktop content of @standard from the live image - you want to approve our package list one-by-one ?

Sure, but GNOME is also default now, so it should accept the FESCo decision to leave sendmail and rsyslog in.

I disagree with this. It's the GNOME spin, not the Fedora product. Unless you are willing to make the rest of the spins adhere to this, I don't see either a need or a basis for making a single spin alter themselves. Or you could declare whatever the default is to be a product and not a spin, but that is a larger task to be tackled.

The governing bodies of Fedora have been pushing for spin autonomy for quite some time. Either spins have that, or they don't.

Given that we 1) have the cloud spin not including these and 2) have an approved feature to promote the cloud spin to parity with all other releases, including the GNOME one... applying that standard to the GNOME desktop spin seems strange.

Note that if you install a GNOME desktop from the install DVD/net install, you'd still have sendmail & rsyslog.

I think there are two self-consistent paths we could take:

1. Spins have freedom to deviate from defaults (as many do), and GNOME is a spin that has a similar freedom. In that case, though, calling GNOME "the default spin" doesn't make much sense. Together with !VisibleCloud (note, not yet approved) the concept of a default spin is getting increasingly dubious anyway. The problem with this option is that leads to increased fragmentation.
2. Some attributes are essential to a medium "being Fedora" and are therefore mandatory. Spin autonomy isn't as binary as "yes/no". (Such things definitely exist - RPM is currently mandatory for example, as are licensing policies.) So all spins should follow the decisions on syslog/sendmail. The problems with this option: 1) a "minimal" spin excluding these is fairly reasonable within the "culture of Fedora", and 2) I do think FESCo should have control to impose such mandatory requirements, and that they should be more frequent in the future, but I'd rather not waste "political capital" on particularly this set of mandatory requirements.

Choosing the first option is easier now; choosing the second might arguably lead to a healthier project but we do need to have a better idea of "being Fedora", instead of just pretending we do and using the pretense to justify an one-off decision.

A suggestion: defer this until after Flock. We are not in such a hurry, and Flock gives us (well... those present only :( ) more opportunity to revisit the direction of Fedora for a longer-term future (servers vs. desktop vs. cloud, single/preferred UI/API vs. everything available on equal footing, bundling/not, lifetime ...). After Flock we have a (slightly) better chance of deciding this comparatively small issue in a way consistent with a longer-term vision.

We should probably rework groups as they are if SIG were removing some tools. Let's leave it after Flock discussion.

According to [1] and [2] the the default desktop spin != Gnome spin so I'm forming a special Gnome SIG sub community that will be targeting the Gnome Fedora users base and will be aiming at delivering the ultimate end user Gnome desktop experience and will be sailing under the Gnome name within the project.

Of course the Gnome developers currently maintaining the "default" spin are welcome to join that effort instead leaving releng up to match the "default" desktop experience for the project and fesco so much desires.

1. https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/spins/2013-July/003317.html

2. https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/spins/2013-July/003319.html

Defer til after Flock conversations seems good to me.

This was revisited in the 2013-08-14 meeting and this time it passed.

AGREED: revisited no default sendmail proposal and approved it this time: (+5, -2)